S1: Welcome to KPBS roundtable. I’m Andrew Bracken. It has been over a decade since the Fat Leonard bribery and corruption scandal hit the US Navy , becoming one of the largest in U.S. military history. But misconduct from prosecutors has upended the case.
S2: That prosecutorial misconduct , which federal Judge Janice Sammartino has called flagrant and outrageous , this withholding of evidence favorable to the defense has ended up taking a lot of other cases.
S1: We delve into what the rulings mean for the case going forward , and look at what lessons have been learned by the Navy from its largest corruption scandal that in the roundup later in the show. This just ahead on KPBS roundtable. In a decade long saga of corruption and scandal. Leonard Francis , better known as Fat Leonard , is expected back in a San Diego courtroom Friday. Last week , five former officers had their felony convictions overturned due to misconduct from prosecutors. Judge Janice Sammartino called it , quote , a tragic chapter for the Navy and an embarrassment for the government. These latest developments follow years of corruption and bribery involving high ranking members of the U.S. Navy , with Leonard Francis at the center of it all. Here to help us understand what’s happening now , as well as peel back the curtain on the long journey that has gotten us here. I’m joined now by KPBS military reporter Andrew Dyer. Also here is Craig Whitlock. He’s an investigative reporter with The Washington Post and author of the new book , Fat Leonard How One Man Bribed , bilked , and Seduced the US Navy. I want to welcome you both back to roundtable. Andrew , I’ll start with you. You were in the courtroom last week when these convictions were overturned. Tell us more about what happened.
S3: Yeah , so it was quite the scene. I mean , a federal courtroom is not really a scene , I should say. But I guess in this case , it was there were a lot of other , a lot more people in the , in the galley than have been in some of the previous hearings I’ve attended other attorneys. People were really interested to see how things were going to go. And , um , I don’t think it was necessarily a surprise. You know , the way the courts work is , you know , defendants have rights. And if the government is caught violating those rights , they have to , you know , by law , offer those defendants relief. And in this case , these these officers , um , all five of them had previously pleaded guilty , um , admitted wrongdoing , admitted to a slew of crimes , mostly related to bribery. Yeah , but because of the misconduct , those felony convictions were tossed out , and one of them had their charges completely wiped and didn’t have to come to anything. But the other four pleaded guilty to misdemeanor disclosing information and were given $100 fines.
S1: Craig , as Andrew mentioned , this wasn’t the first that we heard about potential misconduct here. Tell us about what led up to , you know , what we saw last week with these cases being overturned.
S2: There was a big criminal trial in federal court in San Diego in 2022 , in which five current former Navy officers who had served in the Southern Fleet in Asia were on trial for bribery and conspiracy for taking bribes from Leonard Francis over the years. And , uh , four of those defendants were convicted by a jury. But afterward , it emerged gradually , bit by bit , that prosecutors had in effect , cheated by withholding exculpatory evidence or evidence that was favorable or potentially favorable to the defense. So while this didn’t change a lot of the basic narrative of what happened about taking bribes , in the end the Justice Department was forced to backpedal and let four of those defendants plead instead to misdemeanors so their felony convictions were wiped out. But that prosecutorial misconduct , which federal Judge Janice Sammartino has called flagrant and outrageous , this withholding of evidence favorable to the defense has ended up obtaining a lot of other cases. So last week , you had these other five defendants who had already admitted to taking bribes , admitted guilt. Uh , their cases were either bargained down to misdemeanors or , as Andrew said , one guy’s case was wiped clean entirely. But now this could also result in the unraveling of other cases. There were 29 defendants in the Leonard Conspiracy case who pleaded guilty. And , you know , so there’s going to be others , even ones who have already served time in prison. We’re probably going to come back to the court , and the Justice Department is going to be forced to essentially cut additional deals with more people to have their felony cases erased. And the big question is , what happens to Leonard Francis ? He’s still waiting to be sentenced , and we don’t know yet how this will affect him , but it may be favorable to him as well.
S1: And , Andrew , I think in the courtroom , you mentioned you heard rumblings , reaction from experts and lawyers that there may be more to come , like Craig was talking about. Sure.
S3: Sure. And I should I should point out none of them wanted to speak on the record for my reporting. So this is all kind of just stuff that they told me on on background. But two attorneys , uh , you know , chatted with me and a couple other reporters for quite a while after the hearing. And it was , you know , they’re stunned , right ? Because this is such a , uh , such a big disaster for the government. You know this. Case has been going on more than a decade. I mean , there are reams and reams of evidence. So many people did work on this case attorneys , investigators. There has been just so much done in order to prosecute this vast conspiracy. And it looks like it is just completely been torpedoed. One of the defendants , who was in court last Friday , um , he pleaded guilty in 2015. He was among the first group of officers to to plead out in this case. So we’re talking about relief for defendants all the way from the beginning. So , you know , when Craig mentions how will this affect Frances ? Like that is one of the big questions I think out there is , does this change what happens with him ? Because it seems at least what we’ve seen so far. Every case is potentially tainted , and it just kind of depends on which defendants feel like going back into court and fighting some more.
S2: Yeah , if I could chime in here , it’s important to recognize the nature of these crimes that essentially people are getting away with. One of the defendants last week , a former Navy commander named Steve Shedd , who had been a commanding officer of a warship , the USS Melius , he had admitted on the stand and in his plea agreement to not only taking $100,000 worth of bribes from Leonard Francis , but leaking him military secrets on more than ten occasions. He admitted on the witness stand that he was a traitor. And yet , you know , now his his his case got dropped , you know , so it isn’t that his guilt was in question. He admitted he was guilty. But because of this prosecutorial misconduct in related cases , he’s able to go free. And that is quite a striking turn of events. As Andrew said , it’s hard to overstate the way justice has turned out.
S1:
S3: Those are going to stay on the record. It’s just the just the outcome. So but I mean it is a big outcome for for folks , the difference in between having a felony on your record and a misdemeanor on your record is huge. You know , losing that felony just opens up so many more doors and opportunities , you know , in this stage of their lives as retired officers.
S1: Well , I think you guys both have mentioned the central character here behind it all. Leonard Francis Craig , you know , you just published this book called Fat Leonard. Tell us about Leonard and how he came to be involved in what would become one of the largest scandals in U.S. military history.
S2: So Leonard Francis is a legendary character , and he has been for decades in the Navy. He is a Malaysian citizen who started a company that provided husbanding services or maritime services to Navy ships and subs whenever they pulled into ports in the Western Pacific. So if there was an aircraft carrier strike group that visited Singapore or Manila or Hong Kong , usually it was Leonard’s company that was supplying fresh water and fuel and , uh , tugboats and barges and whatever the crew might need. When it was visiting port for a few days. And at one point he had over $200 million worth of contracts from the Navy and made him a very wealthy man. But one secret to his wealth was that he was also gouging the Navy and federal taxpayers for his services. He was routinely overcharging for all of these services , and the way he was able to do that was he was , in effect , bribing Navy officials , whether supply officers or contracting officials or even NCIS agents , to look the other way while he while he overcharged the government. And this was a formula he used a great success for a number of years. He became known for throwing wild parties as bribes with dinners that cost up to $1,000 a person. Uh , he he handed out Cuban cigars to his favored Navy officers like they were candy. And he was best known for for his sex parties with lots and lots of prostitutes. So this is a figure who is known far and wide throughout the western Pacific. But it finally caught up to him in 2013 , when the Justice Department and federal law enforcement agencies mobilized more than 100 uh federal agents around the world and arrested him in a sting operation in San Diego. And that’s how he came to be arrested in California.
S1: And I think in your book , you document this quite well. You know , how he sort of infiltrated the Navy and particularly the U.S. Navy’s Seventh Fleet out of Asia. And , Andrew , you served in the Navy , and I think you were a part of the Seventh Fleet.
S3: This is a part of the world that has been very important for for many years. I was first there in 2003 , um , and even back then with the war on terror , we have action in Afghanistan and Iraq , obviously. I mean , there were ships , you know , homeported in seventh fleet that were going over there and participating in those actions. But , um , there are several , you know , kind of destinations , you know , around the seventh fleet , which is the Western Pacific. Uh , and. These ports are like , um. They’re like diplomatic stops. They serve a little bit of diplomacy. It also is , you know , R&R for for the ship crews. But , um , you know , for sailors , like hitting these ports for a lot of us , you know , that’s why we joined the Navy. We wanted to see places like Hong Kong. You know , I wanted to see Sydney , Australia. I wanted to see Thailand. And I got to do all of those things just because I was riding on this giant aircraft carrier that happened to to pull in for a few days , and that’s what the operational ships do. But for the seventh fleet specifically , and this is a little in the weeds , the way you know , the Navy works is there’s a Seventh Fleet command ship called the USS Blue Ridge. Now , the Blue Ridge was homeported in Yokosuka along with the Kittyhawk , which was my ship. And we always looked over at the Blue Ridge with a little bit of bitterness , because the Blue Ridge didn’t do anything but hit ports. They their purpose was , as the admiral’s flagship , to visit ports and be this diplomatic ship at. Sailors didn’t have to go and do flight ops and all this wild operational stuff. All they did was hit ports and the officers. Craig mentioned the ones that had been on trial in 2022. You know , these were seventh Fleet staff officers. Many of the officers caught up in this were Seventh Fleet staff officers. So these were these were officers on the Blue Ridge who were hitting ports every two weeks at times. And there was during the height of this whole conspiracy , Leonard Francis was meeting the Blue Ridge at every port and hanging out and partying with these officers. So , uh , seventh Fleet , it’s a large area , a lot of important allies , a lot of strategic. And , of course , you know , foreign policy importance there.
S1: And , Craig , as you mentioned , I mean , this is quite lucrative , this business , right. In your book , you mentioned that , you know , just a four day visit from an aircraft carrier can cost something like $1 million.
S2: So everybody in the Navy went through ethics training , and they all knew particularly contracting officers and supply officers , that they aren’t supposed to accept gifts from Leonard Francis or his company worth more than 20 bucks. Yet they all , you know , so many people , hundreds of people , ignored this rule. One of the revelations in my book is that up to 1000 people came under investigation in this case , most of them for attending dinners or parties with Leonard Francis or his company. And among them were 91 admirals. So this happened over a 20 year period where Leonard was just frankly , living large. A lot of people in the Navy who would do things in the Western Pacific that they probably wouldn’t do at home. But Andrew described the Blue Ridge , the flagship to Leonard. That was the most important ship for him because it was the command flagship. That’s where the the commander of the the seventh fleet , a three star admiral , was that was his floating headquarters. So he put an extraordinary effort into infiltrating that command ship by bribing the staff officers. And at one point , he , you know , he had ten US Navy officers , most of whom had served on the Blue Ridge , leaking him military secrets over a seven year period. Most of these were advanced ship schedules about troop movements years or months in advance. So it’s pretty remarkable. It wasn’t just that he was bribing people with with with parties and prostitutes. It also was an extraordinary case of espionage where Leonard infiltrated the seventh fleet in the Navy , and these officers willingly gave him classified information for many , many years.
S1:
S2: One of the problems was Leonard would obtain these classified ship schedules showing the planned ship in submarine movements , you know , up to 12 months in advance throughout Asia. This is very sensitive information. You don’t want the enemy to know where you’re sending ships because it could put crews at risk. Leonard would use this , this secret information to pre-position his his naval assets so he could make more money and overcharge and even more easily. So this was very valuable information to him. The problem was he didn’t secure it. Once the Navy officers who were on his payroll , uh , leaked him this stuff , he kind of he kept it on an unsecured computer servers , or he kept them in his desk drawers and in Singapore. And the problem was as as federal investigators later found out , was that Leonard’s IT manager for his company was a man of Chinese ethnicity who was actually close friends with the Chinese defense attache in Singapore. So , you know , there certainly was a vulnerability there. And as far as we know , the Navy has never really done a public assessment on the potential damage to national security by the leakage of this information , you almost have to assume that the Chinese could have gotten their hands on it. Now , over time , this you know , this information lost its utility years later. By the time the ships had already visited port. It wasn’t that valuable anymore , but it was certainly a really raging leak of classified information that when undetected for a number of years , and I think , frankly , the Navy’s been too embarrassed to really do an assessment of whether America’s adversaries ever got their hands on it.
S1: When roundtable returns , we continue our discussion on the Fat Leonard scandal and what’s next for Leonard himself.
S3: He still has to be charged and tried for his abstention from justice. So there is more justice to come for Leonard Francis. It’s just a matter of how much time it’s going to take.
S1: That’s next on Round Table. You’re listening to KPBS roundtable. I’m Andrew Bracken. We’re talking about the latest developments in the Fat Leonard scandal. And I’m joined by KPBS , Andrew Dyer , along with the Washington Post’s Craig Whitlock. And in your book , Craig Leonard kind of comes across definitely like a con man , but also almost like a character from a 1980s action movie or something. There’s a quote in your book from a naval officer saying the KGB could not have done what he did.
S2: He he loved to charm people. He was Malaysian , but he had always idolized American culture. He was a fan of Elvis and The Godfather. Uh , and I think , frankly , Navy officers underestimated him. He was this big guy. He weighed between 350 and £500 over the years. He was very charming. He liked to throw parties. So I think a lot of people in the Navy just saw him as this character , this fat , jolly guy who they could have a good time with and didn’t really see him as a potential threat or risk and this was to his advantage. Andrew.
S1: Andrew. Sure.
S3: Sure. I mean , he just understood how to push people’s buttons or pull their strings , you know , he was , like Craig said , very charismatic. He was a fun guy to hang out with. He was a fun guy to party with. And he knew what officers liked , what things he knew. If this guy liked girls he knew of this guy liked fine dining , he knew of this guy , just wanted cash. He knew that because he talked to them. He knew that because he enlisted the officers on his payroll to do recon for him and tell him , okay , this is a good candidate for the conspiracy. This is a bad candidate. This guy’s a Boy scout. He was he had his fingers in everything. He was , um , you know , Craig said he idolized the Godfather. And in many ways , he himself became a godfather. He was a bit of a gangster at the top of this organized crime ring that was hugely successful for , you know , more than a decade. He he also got to their spouses. And that’s something that goes kind of unremarked upon a lot of the times , because it was only the Navy officers who were ever charged with anything. But when you read through the court documents , some of the statements proffer statements , the stories that people tell. In a lot of cases , the spouses of these officers were also receiving gifts , you know , luxury handbags , luxury watches , vacations for the family. So it wasn’t just Navy officers themselves on the take , but also in some cases , their their spouses and families also benefiting.
S1: Well , Craig , in your book , you do make the case that the Navy sort of has a different approach to just the amount of independence it gives its , its officers compared to other military branches. Can you break that down for us ? Sure.
S2: And Andrew , of course , knows this from his firsthand experience. But in the Navy , commanding officers or skippers or captains of a ship or submarine , do have extraordinary independence. Navy historically , is vested this independence on them because , you know , they’re a way for at sea for months at a time. And in the olden days , you know , they didn’t have communications with , with back in Washington or at base in the US. So , you know , these commanding officers have this untrammeled authority to do as they wish. Um , Leonard recognized this , and he really understood that in the military , rank means everything. So he cultivated very carefully , in a very cunning way his relationships with senior officers , whether it was a captain of a ship or an admiral who was in charge of a command , he was a frequent presence in the front row. At change of command ceremonies , he made sure he was always included on the VIP guest list. He would bring photographers with him to take his , you know , selfies of him in these different admirals and captains. And the reason he did this is he knew it would send a message to the rest of the fleet that Leonard Wood was friends with the people in charge , and so that meant people wouldn’t challenge him when he overcharged the Navy or overbuild them for his services , or when , you know , it was clear that he was doing things that violated ethics rules or broke the law. He knew that people were going to be very reluctant to blow the whistle on him or report him if they thought he was friends with the people at the top of the chain of command.
S1: And one thing that’s striking from the story in in your reporting , Craig , and imagine you might have come across this to Andrew’s sort of , um , you know , there were officers that participated in the corruption and the bribery , you know , went to his parties , but there also seemed to be other officers who may have not been totally , um , may have realized something was wrong , but didn’t really fully come out and say it. Or maybe they did file a report , but then it kind of went away. So I guess , what does that say about. The larger culture of the Navy. Um , as you know , a lesson learned from the Fat Leonard scandal. Andrew.
S3: Well , Leonard was smart enough to try to hide his activities from kind of the Boy Scouts , or he would know who to be careful with. Um , I think the the best example is a former , uh , officer that was stationed at the Hong Kong Ship Support Office. His name was David Shores. He was lieutenant at the time , but he was a former surface officer. So he knew the ships and and he knew when certain ships came into Hong Kong. And Leonard sent a bill for x thousand number of gallons of of water pumped in and out that the ship couldn’t handle that much. And he he challenged Leonard and he was , uh , you know , I’ve talked to him a few times over the years and , you know , his chain of command , his his bosses , you know , they came down on him and looked to told him , you know , you know , leave Francis alone. It’s not your job to investigate Leonard Francis. And so there was just kind of this culture , um , because Leonard was such a larger than life figure and so well known among the senior officers that when people did try to speak up , it was kind of tamped down. And I don’t even know the exact number. But there were reports upon reports , upon reports to NCIS of this fraud over the years for just about the whole breadth of the conspiracy , people in the Navy were reporting Francis. They were reporting him. Other contracting companies were challenging these contracts as being unfair. And there are and I’m sure Craig knows the number , but I want to say there were upwards of 20 NCIS investigations opened and closed over the years into Leonard Francis.
S2: There were 27 cases , criminal investigations that NCIS opened and closed , uh , into Leonard’s company. Part of this was he had informants in NCIS who would help him stay a step ahead of investigators. And also , there was really a reluctance to shut him down for a number of years. But just to follow up on what Andrew said , well , there’s one story in my book that still stays with me. Uh , this was based on documents and interviews I conducted. The USS Blue Ridge was pulling into port in Hong Kong , uh , one spring in around 2006. And the JAG officer for the seventh fleet. This is the the top lawyer , a military lawyer and ethics advisor. He sends out an email to all officers in the Seventh Fleet staff saying , we’re pulling in to Hong Kong. Stay away from Leonard Francis and his company. Do not accept any gifts. You know , this was a stern reminder that the federal gift limits for taking gifts from contractors was 20 bucks. He had heard rumors that Leonard was going to throw one of his patented swank dinners. Uh , and so he explicitly warned all the officers and the Seventh Fleet staff to stay away. So , of course , what happens is one of Leonard’s moles on this fleet staff. Immediately Ford’s is emailed to him , and the chief of staff of the seventh fleet decides to ignore this warning. They go ahead with this fancy dinner in Hong Kong that costs several hundred dollars a person , and they’re openly laughing during the dinner about the JAG officer who’s warning them to mind the ethics rules. And this goes on at each port visit that spring by the Blue Ridge that despite this written warning to stay away , other officers who are on Leonard’s payroll kept coming. There was one. One of the next port visits was in Singapore , and Leonard hosted this fantabulous dinner on the the roof of a skyscraper in Singapore. And one of the people who was there was the seventh Fleet chaplain , a Catholic priest , you know , and I interviewed him , you know , years later , I said , didn’t you get the ethics warning to stay away ? Why did you ignore it ? And you kind of shrugged and said , well , I did get this , but I guess I didn’t put two and two together. And , you know , shame on me for ignoring the rules. So it just goes to show that the boy Scouts were few and far between. And even , you know , the chaplains and the chiefs of staff and other people who own knew better , you know , they just kind of ignored the rules , ignored the standards of what was expected of them and , you know , and decided they wanted to partake in Leonard’s gifts and largesse and ignored what they were supposed to be doing.
S1:
S3: According to him , the problem is in just the Navy’s reliance on contractors to start with. You know , so much of what the Navy does , you know , there used to be a base in Subic Bay in the Philippines. It was it was shut down. And I think 1991 , you know , a volcano erupted and we were getting out of there anyway. And it was buried in ash. And so , you know , that used to be one of the places where ships could get some of these services and re-up on their supplies. But after that , you know , there was this real gap of services for these ships , and they needed it. So companies like Glenn Defense , Marine Asia were there to to kind of step up. And I mean , in the last 20 , 30 years. Ask anybody in the military and the reliance on contractors has only increased. So like Craig has said , you know , people knew the rules , then they broke them. Anyway , the rules are still in place. Do people continue to break them ? I don’t have evidence that they are. I think there’s probably a lot more wariness about it given this case. But then again , that’s an assumption on my part.
S1: And we’ll see if these convictions being overturned has some part in that as well. Right , Greg ? Absolutely.
S2: And so one reason why the government , the federal government charges people in cases like this , bribery and fraud is this is deterrence. And they say this in court. They’re trying to deter other people from this kind of behavior and misconduct in the future. So most of these cases get dropped or go by the wayside. So does the deterrence value. But , you know , you asked a really good question , Andrew , about has the culture change. And I think the jury’s out on that. I certainly agree that people are being more careful looking over their shoulders , realizing that they can get in trouble and they need to watch themselves a little bit. But as the culture changed and the Navy’s leadership has really been silent on that , all of the reforms , the so-called reforms they imposed after Leonard Francis was arrested ten years ago really had to do with contracting rules and regulations , but it didn’t address the culture. And in the years since , you know , the the Navy leadership has really remained silent on this whole case. It’s been embarrassed by what’s happened. And it doesn’t want any public attention. But it’s also missed an opportunity to reinstate the right values in the fleet of what people are expected to do. And I think the message that gets sent to through the fleet , by and large , is that a lot of people who got charged are getting away with their crimes , and in particular , a lot of officers. One of the findings in my book was that 91 admirals were investigated or questioned. In this case , only one of them went to jail. So what kind of message is that send about culture or deterrence ? When senior officers , by and large are getting a pass , no matter what happened with in their dealings with Leonard Francis. And so it’s hard to change your culture when there isn’t a willingness to discipline or hold people accountable who are in charge.
S1: So Leonard was arrested all the way back in 2013. I think he pled guilty in , what , 2015 ? Um , still awaiting sentencing. Um. And with , you know , these recent issues with the Justice Department’s cases.
S3: Of course , he absconded famously from justice. The whole other part of the story we haven’t talked about. But he was living in a , I think , in Carmel Valley , some nice big house and paying for his own security. And right , whenever this seventh Fleet trial ended , he , uh , that was the end of his usefulness. You know , the reason he hadn’t been sentenced is because he was the government’s star witness in all of these cases. So for every every officer Francis helped put away , you know , that’s years off of his eventual sentence. So they can’t sentence him until they go through all of these other cases. So as soon as all the cases were done , he he ends up in Venezuela. He gets back here in that swap deal in December. And ever since he’s been back in San Diego , he’s been in the federal lockup downtown , and he’s been in court , I think 3 or 4 times at this point. And each time he comes and he talks to Judge Janice Sammartino and tells her , you know , I’m having trouble getting a new lawyer. I’m having trouble talking to my person. You know , back in in Singapore , I’m having trouble getting access to my money. You know , he just has these stories and kind of excuses. Or maybe , maybe they’re genuine. I have no reason to believe they’re not. But , um , can’t find a lawyer. So without representation , you know , they she can’t sentence him. And it’s been one delay after the other. So tomorrow’s status hearing , I mean , Friday’s status hearing. Um , we’ll find out. Has he got himself a lawyer yet ? And if he has , uh , then the next step would be to schedule a sentencing hearing and for him to be sentenced. Um , after he’s sentenced , he still has to be charged and tried for his absconding from justice. So there is more justice to come for Leonard. Francis. It’s just a matter of how much time it’s going to take.
S1: You know , you both have been covering the scandal and the fallout for several years now. I’m just curious , you know , the question for each of you as we wrap up , what has surprised you most about what you found in your reporting ? Craig , I’ll start with you. Sure.
S2: Sure. So , you know , I’ve been reporting on this case for over ten years , and shortly after Leonard was arrested in 2013. And I’m still amazed at , frankly , how easy it was for Leonard to bribe and infiltrate the Seventh Fleet and the leadership of the US Navy. You know , even though this was going on in broad daylight , almost , you know , the parties and bribes and the fact that he would , you know , he went to Annapolis , to the Naval Academy for a change of command ceremonies. Um , you know that nobody saw that this was a problem. Not just an ethical problem , but a risk in a threat to the Navy as an institution. And really , over the last ten years , the Navy has been unwilling to come come clean about the extent of that. Uh , but , you know , Leonard Francis , it’s easy to make fun of him as this , you know , big overweight guy from Malaysia through a lot of fun parties. But he is the biggest threat to the Navy , uh , in terms of institutionally since the Tailhook scandal of the early 90s. And we still don’t really know the extent of it , although I did my best to document his history of recruiting informants and moles in my book.
S1:
S3: I’ll try. I think , you know , I’ll talk for like 20 or 30 minutes , but , you know , it’s always I always come back to just how all encompassing it is , just the staggering , uh , amount of work that went into one. What Francis did , you know , he was this mastermind , and he was involved in every little detail of every single person that was on the take. You know , he knew that they’re going into this hotel , and he he was involved in every little detail across the spectrum of the Navy , the fleet officers , the the contracting officers in Singapore. Just what he did was absolutely astonishing that he was able to do this and do it for so long. How many people fell under investigation ? Um , you know , the Justice Department , you know , that was , you know , about three dozen people or so that actually actually were charged. But , you know , the Navy itself , in its own separate administrative and criminal court system. You know , they dealt with many more officers. So just how big the scope of the scandal is , what always I have trouble wrapping my brain around. And for it to end like this and it’s still going , it’s not quite over , but for it to end with the federal government just stepping on the biggest rake you can imagine. And all of the all of this work and all of this investigation being almost for nothing , because everybody who admitted to being on the take and selling out our country and selling out our secrets , they’re going to they’re going to end up with a fine and and a misdemeanor on their record. It’s really just , uh , you know , if you said in 2013 , when he was arrested , that this is how this would end and it would be 2024 and still going , nobody would have believed you. But that’s always what I come back to. Whenever I try to just think about this case. It’s just it’s it’s so big. You have to talk about it in parts. You cannot talk about it as one thing. Almost.
S1: Well , I think we’re going to have to end it there. Like you said , there is so much more to this story that we haven’t gotten to. I’ve been speaking with KPBS military and Veterans Affairs reporter Andrew Dyer. Andrew , thanks for being here.
S3: Thanks for having me.
S1: Craig Whitlock also was joining us. He’s an investigative reporter with The Washington Post and author of the new book , Fat Leonard How One Man Bribed , bilked , and Seduced the US Navy. Craig , thanks for being here.
S2: You bet. Great talking with you both.
S1: When we come back. Our weekly roundup takes a closer look at this weekend’s national election in Mexico. It’s coming up right after the break. You’re listening to KPBS roundtable , I’m Andrew Bracken. It’s time now for the weekly Roundup. And back with us is KPBS web producer Laura McCaffrey. Hey , Laura. Hello.
S4: Hello.
S1: And also joining us today is KPBS border reporter Gustavo Solis. Gustavo , welcome. Hello. So we wanted to start quickly by talking about this weekend’s election in Mexico.
S5: So many things through the candidates are what the big issues are. And you can find all of it at KPBS. We actually just did like a big , big , big event on Wednesday , but it’s available on YouTube. You can just watch it on our website. But I mean , we’ll talk about it. Historic election likely to be the first female president 20,000 races , if you count the state and local elections as well. So just a lot riding on this election.
S4: So people can vote from San Diego in this election. Um , tell us about that.
S5: Yeah , that’s a brand new thing. This year. Mexico has has made a real effort to try to , uh , get more Mexicans who live in the United States to vote. There’s something like 7 million people who were born in Mexico and are now living in the US , who could be eligible to vote. Here in San Diego , you can vote at the , uh , consulate in Little Italy , which is pretty exciting. I think historically , the the that constituency group of Mexicans living abroad , very , very small. Like I said , there’s more than 7 million , but less than half a million vote. It’s a tiny percentage of the potential. So if tapped into , I mean , it has the power to swing elections is potentially a very big one. Historically , it hasn’t really stepped up.
S4: Every vote counts. And like you said , historic election because Mexico will likely elect its first female president. Tell us about the leading candidates. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And actually , uh , speaking of every vote counting , uh , Mexican election is a popular vote. So one person , one vote , they don’t have the Electoral College stuff like we do , which people always find interesting to hear. But with the candidates , the two leading ones are Claudia Sheinbaum and Social Galvez. And most people are framing this race as kind of a referendum of the current president , Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador. Uh , Claudia Sheinbaum is from the same party as Lopez Obrador , and she’s running as sort of a campaign of continuity , if you like Lopez Obrador , she’s your person. Social gallerist is in every single sense of the word and opposition candidate. She’s actually running in a coalition of three political parties , uh , prepared by Pan , that are just the big historic political parties in Mexico. And some of them , like they’ve butted heads for decades. They don’t align ideologically. Some are center left , some are center right. But all of them dislike Lopez Obrador. So they’ve kind of come together , joined forces to try to defeat him in this election.
S1: And Amlo , as he’s known , he’s termed out right , he can’t run for another term.
S5: I think his approval rating is in the 60%. But no , he cannot run again. Mexico elected presidents to six year terms and very kind of infamously in Mexico’s past , presidents have abused term limits. So they don’t let people run again anymore.
S1:
S5: Right. Uh , one of the biggest criticisms of amylose administration is his , uh , policy to combating organized crime. He calls it abrazo snowball lassos , which roughly translates to hugs , not bullets. Um , during his tenure , homicide has increased substantially. Uh , not just violence , but also extortion and kidnappings and things like that. So that’s top of mind for people. Other issues include , uh , big infrastructure projects. I know here in Tijuana that’s a big issue. It impacts cross-border sewage , long border wait times. Uh , the US Mexico relationship is also kind of interesting here locally. But nationally , it’s trying to stop corruption and getting the security situation under control.
S1: So , Gustavo , the election is Sunday.
S5: I know like definitely the the electorate , to expect them within a day or two of the election. It it’s not going to be like in the United States where you get weeks and weeks and waiting for certain states. That’s another thing about Mexico’s election system. Unlike the US , where , you know , every county and state has a different system , Mexico has an independent federal election institute , and they oversee elections at the local , state and federal level. So it’s all one agency. And they’re hoping or in the past that has proven to be more effective in getting votes counted quicker. Great.
S1: Great. So maybe as soon as Monday or Tuesday we’ll know more about the future of Mexico. Uh , Mexico’s president. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. We should , we should. It’ll be really , really exciting. Kind of to see how how it turns out.
S1: We appreciate you kind of giving us an update there. And again , there’s more on our website at KPBS. Org. You can find more information on the election.
S4: So it’s another roundup quiz edition. And we roped in Gustavo for this this time pop quiz.
S6: All right , we’ll see how it goes.
S4: So all of these questions are based on reports that our KPBS reporter. Reporters have covered this week. Our first one has to do with some sea critters. So tuna , crabs , they have been showing up at La Jolla and they’re kind of they’re crabs , but they look like lobsters. So it’s a mock lobster , if you will. A an underwater photographer told KPBS that she saw a carpet of them basically as far as the eye could see. They’re subtropical critters , but it’s not unheard of to see them in San Diego. So here’s the question. Why have these impostor lobsters showed up ? Is it a there’s been more plankton near San Diego , which is what the tuna crabs eat. B El Nino currents brought them from Baja California waters. C we don’t know. D It’s tuna crab mating season.
S1: Okay , so how do we do this ? Do I go first or.
S4: Just shout it.
S6: Out ? Go ahead.
S1: I’m going to go El Nino. I know it’s changed a lot , so I’m going to go El Nino B.
S4: Gustavo , what do you think.
S5: Ah I’m hungry. So I’m going to go a I’m assuming they’re hungry too.
S4: It’s actually a B so we’re going to give that one to Andrew. Ding ding ding yay boo. Because since they’re subtropical they want those those warm waters right. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. That was a shot in the dark. I don’t know why I picked me , but.
S6: I got it right.
S4: Good work. All right. So let’s go to the San Diego International Airport now. So San , as it’s known , has an art program that contains both visual and performance art. The program took a break during the pandemic as a lot of things did , but now it’s back. KPBS reporter John Carroll went to go see some performances. There was jazz percussion dance. So our question on the art program has been in existence since 2003.
S5: It’s going to be a total guess.
S1: D 2010.
S4: All right. What do you think Estaba well.
S5: I was going to do that but that wouldn’t be fun. No I’m going to go with a 2016.
S4: So Gustavo you got this one right. It’s a it’s 2016.
S5: Yes yes. All right. Now we’re even.
S7: Tied up.
S4: Now the San Diego County Fair. It’s coming up in. It’s and it’s two weeks away this year the theme is let’s go retro. So that’s taking us back to 5060 70s 80s 90s. And there’s going to be some exhibits that have quote unquote relics like the Gameboy and DVD ROMs , which I both used. And of course , there’s food. You know , it’s known for its multiple fried delights. And so there’s a new offering at the fair , the Funnel Cake Dog , which is a hot dog , and a funnel cake batter topped with syrup and sugar. So which vendor is the creator of this wonderful surprise ? Is it a corn dog ? Surprise ? B Cali pupusas c chicken Charlie’s or D destination unknown.
S1: It sounds like a corn dog. Surprise to me. I’m going.
S5: And I vaguely remember seeing Alex when he did this reporting. I saw him eating a corn dog or what looked like a corn dog. So I’m going to go with corn dog surprise.
S4: And that’s actually a made up name.
S5:
S4: That’s true.
S5: That was my second guess.
S4: Have you all heard of Chicken Charlie’s before ? Apparently , it’s well known for his , uh , deep fried Twinkies.
S1: Sounds familiar , but.
S6: I’m not a huge.
S1: Yeah , I’m not a huge , deep fried. Person.
S6: Person.
S1: But I know that’s part of the the fair. Right. Mhm. Yep.
S4: Yep. So this is his newest this his newest creation I guess. All right. So our last question is about Bill Walton. He was a former NBA player and sports broadcaster and local San Diegan. So he died Monday after living with cancer. He was 71 grew up in la mesa. He loved San Diego so much. Um , he used to have a stutter , but he overcame that and became a very successful broadcaster. He won Emmys , um , and he was known for saying some pretty outrageous stuff. So our question here , uh , which one of these quotes is not something Walton said ? And I got these quotes from a USA today article. So is it a you don’t win championships by just being normal ? By just being average. B I’ve had 36 orthopedic operations have two fused ankles. My knees , hands and wrists don’t work. I now have a few spine. Other than that , everything is great. C but you have to understand , my beard is so nasty. I mean , it’s the only beard in the history of Western civilization that makes Bob Dylan’s beard look so good. Or is it D. Toronto , to me , is a clean New York.
S1: I’m going to go de Toronto , clean New York. I’m pretty sure the 36 operations. I know he had a ton of operations , and he used to carry around a chair when he would go places because his back was so , so injured. Mhm.
S6: Mhm.
S4:
S5: I’ll go with a.
S4: All right. It’s actually D. Oh Charles Barkley actually said that for some reason. Another.
S6: Another.
S1: Very well known basketball figure. But yeah , it’s been interesting hearing a lot of the stories about Bill Walton and his impact , as you mentioned , like he is he’s from San Diego. KPBS Thomas Fudge did did a story on his legacy and spoke with sports reporter Jay Parris. And here’s a little of what what he had to say about what San Diego kind of meant to him. So I’ll throw to that now.
S8: He loved the Grateful Dead , but I think he even loved San Diego more. And for him to come home to play for the Clippers , to play in the sports arena which still stands today and have his families and friends there , it was the it had to be one of the greatest feelings in his life.
S1: And I think there you hear he’s obviously was known as a basketball player first and foremost. He played on these famous UCLA teams. But he was also known for his love of music of the Grateful Dead , as you heard there. And being around town , I think a lot of people ran into him at various , you know , various places. A lot of times the YMCA I go to has a statue of him outside. Um , he was very like a big bike rider around town , too.
S4: Um , I think he was quoted as saying something like , I love my bike , I love San Diego , and I love solar power. I guess he was into that.
S5: I’m not a basketball fan. Honestly , most of what I know about him is him going really hard after Todd Gloria because of homelessness issues and him being connected with that plan to build a camp and put people there for a while. I’m not sure what that means for his legacy , but it’s always nice to have people who grew up here get success and come back here just fall in love with San Diego. I feel like people outside San Diego think of this as a small town , kind of like a stepping stone to go up to LA or San Francisco or something. But I’m a big fan of hometown pride.
S1: Gustavo Solis , thanks so much for being here.
S5: Oh , no. You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. I’ll I’ll try to do better on the quiz next time. No.
S6: No.
S1:
S5:
S6: 2 to 1. You won two out of four.
S4: We got one.
S1: We need a prize of some sort next time. Well , Gustavo , thanks again for being here. Laura. Thanks , as always , for being here on the roundup.
S4: You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
S1: That’ll do it for the roundtable this week. Thanks so much for being here. We’d love to hear from you. You can leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. You can also email us at roundtable at pbs.org. You can listen to KPBS roundtable any time as a podcast. Our show airs on KPBS FM at noon on Fridays again Sundays at 6 a.m.. Roundtable was produced by Laura McCaffrey and me , Andrew Bracken Brooke Ruth is Roundtable’s senior producer. Brandon Trufant is our technical producer , and I’m your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks again for listening and have a great weekend.
